APE IN A CAPE

kaerya:

gailsimone:

valerie-renee:

gailsimone:

[cut for length and relevance]

It was so thoughtful, and the questions afterwards were so smart…I love this con, it’s just amazing. I hope there are more like it, soon. It’s an astounding creative success. I hope it’s a commercial one, as well.

The discussion after was brief, they kicked us out for time.

The only real complaint about the books that we heard (and again, the discussion was short, there may have been more with time), was from a very smart woman who sat right behind me (I didn’t make my presence known, I just wanted to sit in to support scholarly discussion of comics), who felt that Scandal telling her father, Vandal Savage, that she would not give him a true heir, was giving the message that lesbians don’t want to have families, or are anti-childbearing.

It’s an interesting point, I think it’s a fair observation to make—I will have to reread the scene because I’m pretty sure that Scandal just objects to Vandal’s manipulations, not the IDEA of childbearing.

I can see where someone would come to this conclusion, especially if they take Scandal’s flippant remarks to her father out of context:

She had a few of these little outbursts, making it seem like having a child would be the worst possible thing she could imagine. At one point, she told her father she’d rather die than continue his (their) legacy.

Of course, if you read the whole book, it’s very clear that Scandal is most vehemently opposed to the force that’s being used against her, and many of the things she says, above example included, are to make a point, and get under Vandal’s skin.

But, I still think it’s valid to say that Scandal is opposed to having kids.  At the end of that book, she talks about getting her tubes tied, like it’s an easy way to be permanently rid of a pesky problem.  She goes on to say that people who lead her kind of life don’t make good parents.

But she’s not talking about being gay, she’s talking about being a villian-for-hire.  So yes, I get the sense that Scandal never wants to have kids, but I never really tied that in to the fact that she’s gay.  I think the two just happen to mutually coexist.

Those are really good points. I realize intent is always a tricky issue, but my feeling at the time was that the ‘tubal’ comment was her last way of saying FUCK YOU to her father and his plans to dominate her life.

Also, I didn’t write that top panel, that was Paul Cornell.

I think you make a good case. I can see now what the woman in the panel was talking about.

I think Scandal would make a lovely mom. As an adopted kid myself and a foster parent, it’s important to remember that there are LOTS of ways to have kids, not all of which would satisfy Vandal’s desires. She could certainly adopt.

Agreed with the above, but I also want to point out that in addition to the original commenter’s issue, another stereotype that tends to crop with lesbians is that, even though they’re gay, they’re still women so of course they want to have children.  Which is a whole nother kettle of problematic fish.  So coming from that perspective, I really quite enjoyed reading about Scandal not wanting kids.  Even if it was a context based decision.

But yeah, while I think the context for this makes Scandal’s reasons very clear, it also creates so associations, by proximity if not by semantics, that are a little uncomfortable in their implications.

Which obviously just means we need tons more LGBTQ heroes, so that the whole spectrum of emotions on the topic can be shown off. XD

That’s also a great point, and you’re right, we see that presented as cliche quite often, which is seemingly trying to indicate that the lesbian character feels incomplete somehow, like they feel they have to make some sort of substitution for a life they would have had if they were a straight wife and mom, which, agreed, is all bullshit.

The lady in question felt it was tone-deaf because she had been aware of a lot of gay parenting blogs, which is a fair point, but doesn’t necessarily apply to every gay character.

You’re right, Dwayne McDuffie talked about this—if you have one black character, that character tends to have to represent all black characters. So the idea is to have more, lots more diversity. The default for almost everything still seems solidly cis-gendered, straight, white, male and able-bodied. We can do better than that.

valerie-renee:

gailsimone:

[cut for length and relevance]

It was so thoughtful, and the questions afterwards were so smart…I love this con, it’s just amazing. I hope there are more like it, soon. It’s an astounding creative success. I hope it’s a commercial one, as well.

The discussion after was brief, they kicked us out for time.

The only real complaint about the books that we heard (and again, the discussion was short, there may have been more with time), was from a very smart woman who sat right behind me (I didn’t make my presence known, I just wanted to sit in to support scholarly discussion of comics), who felt that Scandal telling her father, Vandal Savage, that she would not give him a true heir, was giving the message that lesbians don’t want to have families, or are anti-childbearing.

It’s an interesting point, I think it’s a fair observation to make—I will have to reread the scene because I’m pretty sure that Scandal just objects to Vandal’s manipulations, not the IDEA of childbearing.

I can see where someone would come to this conclusion, especially if they take Scandal’s flippant remarks to her father out of context:

She had a few of these little outbursts, making it seem like having a child would be the worst possible thing she could imagine. At one point, she told her father she’d rather die than continue his (their) legacy.

Of course, if you read the whole book, it’s very clear that Scandal is most vehemently opposed to the force that’s being used against her, and many of the things she says, above example included, are to make a point, and get under Vandal’s skin.

But, I still think it’s valid to say that Scandal is opposed to having kids.  At the end of that book, she talks about getting her tubes tied, like it’s an easy way to be permanently rid of a pesky problem.  She goes on to say that people who lead her kind of life don’t make good parents.

But she’s not talking about being gay, she’s talking about being a villian-for-hire.  So yes, I get the sense that Scandal never wants to have kids, but I never really tied that in to the fact that she’s gay.  I think the two just happen to mutually coexist.

Those are really good points. I realize intent is always a tricky issue, but my feeling at the time was that the ‘tubal’ comment was her last way of saying FUCK YOU to her father and his plans to dominate her life.

Also, I didn’t write that top panel, that was Paul Cornell.

I think you make a good case. I can see now what the woman in the panel was talking about.

I think Scandal would make a lovely mom. As an adopted kid myself and a foster parent, it’s important to remember that there are LOTS of ways to have kids, not all of which would satisfy Vandal’s desires. She could certainly adopt.

bitchbehindthemask:

gailsimone:

gailsimone:

My Special Yell Thing: So, apparently Catman’s bi. Yay for him, and for bi readers now…

thenakedlibrarianontheroof:

The one thing I still disagree with is Scandal.  I still don’t see how showing her love life and sex life is really a problem…we didn’t show her as pandering to the male gaze, her relationships with Kay and Liana were never about the straight male gaze in any particular sense. It was just that she was the romantic of the group.  She says she’s gay explicitly twice, I think, the rest is just story and her character, and I think many of her most memorable moments are non-romantic, such as her relationship with Bane.

I guess that bit puzzles me a little, to be honest. I agree that it would have been nice to see more of Creote and Savant together on panel, even as supporting characters, but I’m not sure I see what having Scandal’s romantic life getting less screen time would do that’s positive.

As part of that, I also disagree a little that we haven’t been reminded of other sixers’ sexuality, even if they didn’t have as much of a romantic turn as Scandal.  Floyd’s heterosexuality came up often, as did Bane’s desire for Spencer.

The odd thing for me, and this isn’t about your post, but, man, since this book started, I’ve been hearing about the clear romantic vibe between Floyd and Blake, just endlessly. I found it all charming and amusing, I never denied it, it’s mentioned in many, maybe most of the reviews and commentaries. I don’t think ‘bromance’ covers it…it’s clear that Floyd and Blake care more about each other than they are comfortable admitting and sometimes, they seem almost obsessed with each other.  I think that subtext has always been there like a neon sign…but Black and Lawton aren’t really any good about talking about their feelings, and Blake, who is the superhothot dude of the group, has never really expressed much in the way of his feelings sexually in the book for ANYONE but Huntress, so she is looming large in his sex life, which excludes others. Jeannette is in the same boat—she’s bisexual, but her obsession right now is Floyd. But she TALKS more about what she wants than Blake, so we at least had oblique reference to her openness to relationships with other women (which we see in her hatred/attraction with Amazons).

I talked about Deadshot’s reaction if Blake had come out to him on another thread—my initial thought was, yeah, Lawton would probably have some shock. Then I thought, no no no, it’s much more Lawton if he already knows and could not care less. It’s not that he’s so enlightened, it’s that he genuinely doesn’t give a shit what other people do because he’s not a hypocrite. Of all the Six, Blake is probably the one least likely to show his feelings, even more so than Lawton.  I always felt the ‘Secret’ Six meant secret as in personal, not secret as in covert.

My opinion is that Blake is fired by an animal impulse, he wants what he wants, he doesn’t care what Lawton or anyone else things, and when someone gives off the scent, he responds in an animal way. His feelings for Huntress hurt and confuse him, they take him out of his own control. He doesn’t like it, he resents it. But he still pursues it.

This is starting to sound a little inside, but that was the approach I had for the characters.  I don’t know if it’s obvious but I MISS WRITING THE SECRET SIX. :)

Anyway, fun comments, thank you for giving me the opportunity to present what was in my head at the time.  I agree, again, with the idea that it would have been lovely to show Creote and Savant in their downtime.  And you’re right, they did become very popular supporting characters…Savant was originally supposed to die in the first arc he appeared in but he immediately struck a chord and Creote followed soon after.  The dichotomy was that giving two guys lots of page time in the ONLY successful female team superhero book in DC and Marvel history seemed like it would be doing a disservice to the core team, as well.  The perils of a team book are always about balance and panel time!

WAIT..JEANNETTE IS BI?!!!!! love love love love love!

Absolutely she is…I feel a bit weird here because I thought I’d been pretty clear about that in the scripts, especially when she’s facing Artemis and Diana.

The backstory is that she and Scandal were lovers in a Russian gulag, but decided they are better as friends.

gailsimone:

My Special Yell Thing: So, apparently Catman’s bi. Yay for him, and for bi readers now…

thenakedlibrarianontheroof:

So, apparently Catman’s bi.

Yay for him, and for bi readers now slightly more represented in comics (as it were, considering Catman’s still under the radar…

Well, again, this is very thoughtful stuff and I appreciate the kind words. I don’t think you’re being nitpicky at all, these are fair points. I disagree with a couple and a couple I have to mark down to missed opportunities, which ultimately is always going to be the fault of the creative team, including editorial. 

Possibly my favorite thing about doing Volume II, which was fraught with editorial disagreements and artist problems (many of which were unfortunately unavoidable, like unexpected illnesses), was getting to finally put Savant and Creote together in canon.  It was a similar thing to what I’ve said with Catman…I knew they were supposed to end up together, but the space wasn’t there in my last few issues of Volume I to show it. So I was really happy to tell that story even if, in retrospect, I would have made some adjustments.

Let me just bullet point your other comments a little bit, if that’s cool. Again, I think these are fair observations.

I think Creote was established as having loyalty to Savant, mostly. Savant wanted to try to make good with Canary and Oracle, and Creote had the connections in Russia, so that meant he was a good operative for that mission. He did it because Savant asked him to.

The one thing I still disagree with is Scandal.  I still don’t see how showing her love life and sex life is really a problem…we didn’t show her as pandering to the male gaze, her relationships with Kay and Liana were never about the straight male gaze in any particular sense. It was just that she was the romantic of the group.  She says she’s gay explicitly twice, I think, the rest is just story and her character, and I think many of her most memorable moments are non-romantic, such as her relationship with Bane.

I guess that bit puzzles me a little, to be honest. I agree that it would have been nice to see more of Creote and Savant together on panel, even as supporting characters, but I’m not sure I see what having Scandal’s romantic life getting less screen time would do that’s positive.

As part of that, I also disagree a little that we haven’t been reminded of other sixers’ sexuality, even if they didn’t have as much of a romantic turn as Scandal.  Floyd’s heterosexuality came up often, as did Bane’s desire for Spencer.

The odd thing for me, and this isn’t about your post, but, man, since this book started, I’ve been hearing about the clear romantic vibe between Floyd and Blake, just endlessly. I found it all charming and amusing, I never denied it, it’s mentioned in many, maybe most of the reviews and commentaries. I don’t think ‘bromance’ covers it…it’s clear that Floyd and Blake care more about each other than they are comfortable admitting and sometimes, they seem almost obsessed with each other.  I think that subtext has always been there like a neon sign…but Black and Lawton aren’t really any good about talking about their feelings, and Blake, who is the superhothot dude of the group, has never really expressed much in the way of his feelings sexually in the book for ANYONE but Huntress, so she is looming large in his sex life, which excludes others. Jeannette is in the same boat—she’s bisexual, but her obsession right now is Floyd. But she TALKS more about what she wants than Blake, so we at least had oblique reference to her openness to relationships with other women (which we see in her hatred/attraction with Amazons).

I talked about Deadshot’s reaction if Blake had come out to him on another thread—my initial thought was, yeah, Lawton would probably have some shock. Then I thought, no no no, it’s much more Lawton if he already knows and could not care less. It’s not that he’s so enlightened, it’s that he genuinely doesn’t give a shit what other people do because he’s not a hypocrite. Of all the Six, Blake is probably the one least likely to show his feelings, even more so than Lawton.  I always felt the ‘Secret’ Six meant secret as in personal, not secret as in covert.

My opinion is that Blake is fired by an animal impulse, he wants what he wants, he doesn’t care what Lawton or anyone else things, and when someone gives off the scent, he responds in an animal way. His feelings for Huntress hurt and confuse him, they take him out of his own control. He doesn’t like it, he resents it. But he still pursues it.

This is starting to sound a little inside, but that was the approach I had for the characters.  I don’t know if it’s obvious but I MISS WRITING THE SECRET SIX. :)

Anyway, fun comments, thank you for giving me the opportunity to present what was in my head at the time.  I agree, again, with the idea that it would have been lovely to show Creote and Savant in their downtime.  And you’re right, they did become very popular supporting characters…Savant was originally supposed to die in the first arc he appeared in but he immediately struck a chord and Creote followed soon after.  The dichotomy was that giving two guys lots of page time in the ONLY successful female team superhero book in DC and Marvel history seemed like it would be doing a disservice to the core team, as well.  The perils of a team book are always about balance and panel time!

thenakedlibrarianontheroof:

So, apparently Catman’s bi.

Yay for him, and for bi readers now slightly more represented in comics (as it were, considering Catman’s still under the radar in the new DCU). But I’ve been wondering about a few things.

I’m not saying anything good or anything bad about Gail Simone, her writing,…

Hope it’s okay to respond.

First,  I don’t want to invalidate anything you’re saying here. We may disagree on a few points but I agree with what (I think, anyway, correct me if I’m wrong), is your main point…that it’s a little squidgy to talk about this stuff after you’re off the series.

It is cheating, in a way.  Even on the thread about this Catman thing, I said that it will mean a lot more when I can show it in canon, right now it’s just this thing I said.

I’m a long term writer when I take an assignment on an ongoing book. I don’t mind waiting a year or even years for reveals. An example is Scandal proposing to Liana and Kay at the same time, that’s something I’ve had planned for a long time. Catman’s real origin, Bane’s return to Venom, that stuff’s been in the planning stages for years.

What sucks is, sometimes a book ends or you are moved to another book. And things you have carefully planned don’t get resolved, as you’d hoped. I had revealed, I think over a year ago, that one of the guys in the Six was bisexual, and it felt unfair not to reveal that when it may be years before I get to write a Secret Six book again. Someone asked, so I answered.

I agree that it would have been vastly preferable to answer it in story but I don’t have any guarantees I will ever get to tell that story. So it seemed like there wasn’t much harm in revealing my concept.

Savant and Creote, I think you have another point. We needed to spend some time with them together. It was always there in the second run, but it would have been great to show it. Crowded cast, busy plots, I should have taken an issue or two for some down time with the cast, something that was always a part of my first run on the series. To be fair though, a big part of my agenda for Bop was to show you could do a girl team book and NOT make it all about romance, something a lot of skeptic doubted.  Creote and Savant represent the only significant romance in what, sixty issues or something like that?  But it would have been great to see them date, I would write that in a heartbeat.

The only thing I really disagree with you on in showing Scandal’s love life, I think that was a focal point for her character. I never thought it was a big deal that she was in love with other women, and the other Sixers didn’t seem to care, either. She was the romantic of the group, the one most prone to a broken heart.

Great post, lot of thoughtful comments, sorry if this stuff didn’t work for you.

I’ll definitely keep it in mind on future projects!